Team XPC's Risk Management Strategy...

[prujohn]

I just though I'd throw up a topic on this subject because I saw some comments about impact it has to us as a team when a major cruncher leaves.

My thoughts are thus:

It's risky for us (as a team) to depend on a few big crunchers for our continued success in stats (which is fun AND worthwhile to humankind, etc etc).

It therefore seems logicial to me that are team might consider adopting a strategy of recruiting as many "little crunchers" as we can. That way, when people come and go - as naturally happens - we mitigate the chances of a single person or two having a major impact on our collective output.

My suggest would be that perhaps once a quarter, we have a recruitment drive where every member tries to recruit just one other person to our team. I know that might sound easier than it is in reality, but hey - it's only a suggestion people! ;)

Everyone's thoughts are welcome :)

- Prujohn :chug:

[sharder8]

Here's my Problem Management model! :D

Maybe we can modify it a bit. :P

Harder

[Cowboybooter]

Once a Quarter!!:eek:

How's about every other day?

:D

Bob

[Tracey]

I think it is a great idea. Little crunchers get big 'happiness' returns for their effort and 2091 stays on top.

Tracey :)

[prujohn]

Originally posted by sharder8
Here's my Problem Management model! :D

Maybe we can modify it a bit. :P

Harder


:rofl2:

[StandrdDev]

While I'm betting sharder posted that model for humor, the scary thing is it isnt all that far from reality here at XPC, IMCO. It just comes down to how you personally answer that first question.

What this team is experiencing, and has experienced over the last 6 months, is anything but natural - its systemic, insipid and insidious.

For the last 6 months to date, the total number of points that has left this team is just over 200 million and growing (a little less than half XPC's agreggate total) - the half of which comes not from monster crunchers like Mondo and Lauren, but from smaller guys like CWizard, Geobot, TT, myself, and others. This doesn't even take into account all those names in grey, who've stopped crunching entirely for whatever reason.

Additionally, FaD in recent months has enjoyed a huge surge of new members (along the line of 2000). Due primarily to distributed folding shutting down and probably some problems with the BOINC platform. However, XPC has received a disproportionate few, despite having the hands-down best stats, forum, and even prize-giveaways. There's far more to it than mere coincidence...

Lastly, the quarterly recruitment drive I think is insufficent. There have been innumerable threads here elucidating how most of the current members here have pimped, pitched, or otherwise brought FaD to the attention of every distant cousin, co-worker, CIO, and friend who will listen past the first sentence - 24x7X365. Some have even installed FaD on unsuspecting/unintrested relatives and co-workers surreptitisously - so I dont see how a quarterly recruitment drive (a noble and worthy cause always) will yield enough new recruits to stem the loss of a PU, Zippy or the like.

In closing, I wish to note that BY FAR the worst affect on this team (for which no strategy will reduce its impact) is the loss of the people behind the points, and the dynamic they imparted with their particpation, and the experiences, talents and proclivities they brought to the table. One is too many, and almost all could have been prevented or mitigated for a lot less than you might think - if you had only seen the opportunity and proven willing to seize it.

I hope that this post will not generate a series of prideful responses of denial and exculpation, but rather generate the spark of thought in a committed member that might usher in a little change for the better. So do your best, or your worst, how ever you might be inspired.

"Wary a man should be, if everyone around him should agree."

Sincerely and respectfully,

Sigma

[Shyguy]

A lot of little crunchers? I think thats how TSC, Team NONE (a collective term to describe FaD crunchers not in a team) & some others produce such great results, sure they have some heavy hitters in their teams, but a bulk of it is from many many smaller crunchers, IMO!!!

[Win2Kuser]

XPC fortunately unfortunately (how ever you view it) has average per member the highest output. If the top 5 members alone formed their own team, that team would be exactly where XPC is now - 2nd :eek:

Leading on from this, when a team has such high pointed long standing members, those members tend to have a way of doing/seeing things their own way, and in cases of disagreement, it is all to easy to hit the change team# button. All the top teams suffer with members moving around, leaving etc, XPC is no exception.

No one forces anyone to be on a particular team, if that member chooses to leave because for example they don't believe in lack of political threads in the forum etc, then who are we to stop them.

What was the point of your post anyway Sigma, to gloat how XPC has blown away 200 million points (no where near btw), or to maybe offer some advice, in which case I didn't see any.

How would you propose we stop members leaving? Change forum rules just for those members? All change our posting habits? All have lists of things to avoid saying to certain members in case they get offended? Or maybe to allow members to blatently accuse other teams of doing things unsubstantiated and let them get away with it?

XPC may not have the benefit of having a country name and hense have the recruting power of say a Russian country team, or a dedicated Linux or AMD team, but seeing that we have in the last few months gained around 30 new members, I don't think we have done to bad - But sure, there is always room for improvement.

2000 new members to FaD in recent months - very encouraging to read, but unfortunately, ~70% of those new members only ever send in 1 job, and ~80% join team None to start with anyway.

As for your comments about our members that have given up and no longer crunch, have a look at the stats, you will find that XPC at 67% has one of the highest ratio's of active members in any of the top teams - This in itself speaks volumes for this team.

I will round up by saying that I find your post and comments disencouraging to this team, you make out that we are doing something wrong. We are NOT doing anything wrong, average per member we are smacking out more results than ANY other team, we do have the best stats :bunny: and we do have fun.

Further more, it is not our intention to make or let members leave, but we are unable to stop anyone doing so if they so wish.

And as has been posted already, it is the Bread and butter crunchers that make up the bulk of this team, those members that day in and day out keep consistantly sending in a few results - The sum of which makes up the heart of this great team.

[Mntsnow]

Thanks for putting that fine reply together W2k :)

I concur...

[tgxiii]

In response to the thread originator:
Originally posted by prujohn
It therefore seems logicial to me that are team might consider adopting a strategy of recruiting as many "little crunchers" as we can.
We already do that! :D I know it may seem intimidating for new members to see such high output crunchers, but they should know that their output is just as appreciated.

Originally posted by prujohn
That way, when people come and go - as naturally happens - we mitigate the chances of a single person or two having a major impact on our collective output.

This is my opinion, and mine alone. I am not speaking for the team when I say this. (Thought I'd get that out of the way first.)

The points are very fun, and so is the friendly competition that ensues from them. But, that's not as important as finding cures. If people leave XPC, I will miss not their points, but their posts. If they continue to crunch for cures, it doesn't matter to me what team they are on.

[Cowboybooter]

I entirely agree, tgxiii! The points thingy is fun, and some thrive on the competition they provide! But the points are only window dressing, points don't dry tears or mend broken hearts!

Researched, Developed Cures will do that!

Just my opinion!

:)

Bob

[PresterJohn]

i have always been of the opinion that having a lot of small & medium crunchers to be the preferred way to go rather than having large crunchers.

before i go further however, i would like to comment on what StandrdDev posted.

What this team is experiencing, and has experienced over the last 6 months, is anything but natural - its systemic, insipid and insidious.

this is rather a great oversimplification of events here and elsewhere. first off, XPC is not the only team which has undergone dramatic change. thinktank, deep thought, and techimo are three top teams teams that have seen members leave or become inactive in the last 1-2 years.

as for the core members that have left this team, they number 4 - Mondobyte, cwizard, TT, and geobot. Lauren was only here for a number of months and StandrdDev was only here for about 6 month. (Engracio returned back to TIMO because he's had long-standing ties with that board and scoser left to support the growing Anandtech team). the reasons why the forementioned 4 left are varied, but IMO, it all boils down to them taking FAD 'too seriously' and then decided to take matters into their own hands (when certain incidents occured) or they allowed their personal feelings to become more important than the common goal.

Mondo dearly loved the project but he allowed his mounting frustration w/FAD and the points controversy to boil over into a series of confrontations which ultimately lead to a mutual parting of ways. cwizard and standrddev left because they disagreed with how that was handled.

geobot has flitted from one DC to another and from one team to another. he's gone from crunching fad to ecc2 to fad again, from techimo to xpc to hardcore to xpc to timo again. i was not surprised to see him leave, yet again...about par for the course.

TT and Lauren collided on what was essentially a difference in their fundamental personalities. Lauren was very gung-ho about crunching...it was a 'XPC vs Them' sort of thing, them being anyone who was crunching under another banner. on the other hand, TT was much more laid-back and made friends with many others in the FAD community and thus was bound to butt heads with Lauren eventually. the fact that they did almost from day 1 was nothing more than a precursor to what was to follow.

i would hardly call what transpired in these cases to be 'insipid and insidious'. to give it that tone is being overly melodramatic and deliberately exaggerated and i would question why you [StandadDev] would use those choice of words. i interpret the motivation to be non-altruistic in nature despite your words to the contrary.

more to follow...i need to fix something to eat.

[edit] typos

[knothead]

Originally posted by tgxiii

....that's not as important as finding cures... If they continue to crunch for cures, it doesn't matter to me what team they are on.
As well it should be. :)

The FaD project is bigger than us, or our egos, etc. Once I began to catch on to what this is all about, I got kinda proud of my little computer, and what it's doing in the background. :D

btw, I enjoy picking on SHarder, (and I know I'm in good company...:D) but I'll tell ya...when the guy picks up on some stray processing cycles, he'll pursue 'em like the very devil! :D He is DEFINITELY a FaD Recruiter Supreme!

The sunuvagun managed to twist my arm...over the PHONE!! :eek: :P

Yes, boss, I'm crunching away...

Signed, a bread-and-butter cruncher! :)

And btw, thank you for the validation, Win2K and tgxiii! :cool:

[sharder8]

Okay, just got home from paying electric and phone/DSL! :eek: :eek: (btw, if I'm no longer around, wifey found out what I had to pay! :rolleyes: )

Yes Sigma, I posted that to add a bit of humor. :D

Now, I will clarify a couple points! :eek:

In regards to why a couple of the people left that you refer to, there was much more goining on in the background than you, me, or most of the rest of the team knew/know little about.

In the case of Mondo and how that was handled, I PM'd you some of the background info that I knew you were unaware of and you never even had the courtesy to respond. You continued to run on the little bit of info you'd gleaned from posts here and based your decisions on partial info and false/embellished info. You've popped in on ocassion to make derogatory comments based on the little you know about what happened, and think you're right based on that minimal info.

This is once again evident with your above post. Once again, you know nothing or very little about what was going on in the background and you've made brash statements based on the little you know of the situation. FYI, TTwit left partly to get off the same team as Lauren, and when Lauren went to Team None, TTwit left there as well. (What would you think if TTwit was to split his herd and bring part of it back to XPC??)

Geobots departure was covered by PJ and as for Cwizard, his leaving the team was, like you, based on incomplete/deceptive info and his distaste of the type of humor many here find refreshing at times.

Finally Sigma, it's sad when ya' base your decisions without looking at all the info available to you. Like I mentioned earlier, you never responded or questioned the facts when I PM'd them to you. It's even sadder when you come in here and post false or embellished info in an attempt to disrupt the team you chose to no longer support.

Harder

BTW Knot . . . . I'm waitin' for ya' ta' start twistin' TKOP's arm, to at a minimum, get him crunching under your name, if not his own. :P

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

I think what needed to be said has been said, IMO of course.

Sigma, if you want information, please ask, most can fill you in.

(BTW, people do change thier views, they are free to do so, the joy of the net)

[PresterJohn]

to pick up where i left off...

XPC experienced explosive growth pretty much from day1. because the core of the team had come from TIMO which was itself a powerhouse (i think we had taken #1 recently or we were about to) our growth was 'record-breaking' from the very beginning. within several weeks of moving here we had climbed into the top 4 and we knew we could go higher.

the forum activity here at XPC was proceeding at breakneck pace and members continued to 'pour in' (relatively speaking given that FAD was still quite small and did not have large teams) via word of mouth and recruiting...we were seeing numbers in the high 80's for active members participating.

inevitably though, as the project continued on..you do see some partipcation drop off. running a project like FAD which essentially has no finite timeline means it takes a very special type of person to stay active. on the whole, given the contraints of what we have to work with, ie:

- XPC does not have the sustained returning visitor traffic of other boards like Anandtech and TechIMO

- XPC is not a hardcore enthusiant board like TSC! or HardOCP which by their nature is a magnet for tech geeks (and their accompaniment of many, many PC's)

...we've done a decent job of recruiting. we've gained members like Roadtech, SoopaStar, n7, Twiztid, Shyguy, dannychuckle, Strop, LP (for a time), Roadkill, stant093 and many others.

can we do better?...sure, i'd like to always think we can do better, but i definitely do not agree that we are the 'flop' that StandrdDev seems to say we are.

we continue to have a welcome and open forum where members freely discuss anything and everything they deem important (one could even argue that our members might be a bit too outspoken)! MntSnow and the mods here have a rather tricky job at times managing things but i see nothing they should be held accountable for.

IMO, one of the few unfortunate developments is how the Lauren/TT incident was handled of which i do not have much information as to what exactly happened or the scope of it and i am not even sure if events would have turned out differently given the deep differences between Lauren and TT from the beginning.

in any event...time marches on and while members may come and go, the work still needs to be done. i trust that team XPC will always be a big contributor to that end...a BIG contributor in heart and spirit and not always necessarily in points. :cool:

[mickwish]

OK, let's stay on track here now. Anyone wanting to post about how to improve XPC's recruiting please fell free. Anyone wanting to bash http://users.bigpond.net.au/wishart/images/smilies/bashh.gif other forum members (regardless of how "correct" you think you are) can find a private avenue for those thoughts (PM or email).

Anyone else who has a problem with something posted by anyone, please use the Report this post to a moderator button. That's what it's for, folks. ;) Try to avoid compounding the problem by posting back a bashing of them.

Thanks, everyone http://users.bigpond.net.au/wishart/images/smilies/thanks[1].gif
Mick

[Siliconjunkie]

Well, I have no idea what happened with other memebers, and it really doesn't matter. Like all communities, things ebb and flow, people come and go.

Amanda crunched for a while, then had to stop for the summer, I popped up and started crunching recently.

Others will do the same thing.

As for attracting/recruiting new members, the giveaways are a good way to go. It's what got me to throw a cruncher in. I think that the contests need to be tweaked, since due to the causal/new member they appear easily rigged. Most will be skeptical and think that it only goes to certain people or similar.

I have some ideas on how to fix this, but this isn't the place to discuss them.

Just my 2 shillings.

[roadtech]

Originally posted by mickwish
OK, let's stay on track here now. Anyone wanting to post about how to improve XPC's recruiting please fell free. Anyone wanting to bash http://users.bigpond.net.au/wishart/images/smilies/bashh.gif other forum members (regardless of how "correct" you think you are) can find a private avenue for those thoughts (PM or email).

Anyone else who has a problem with something posted by anyone, please use the Report this post to a moderator button. That's what it's for, folks. ;) Try to avoid compounding the problem by posting back a bashing of them.



Thanks, everyone http://users.bigpond.net.au/wishart/images/smilies/thanks[1].gif
Mick Thanks, Mick

[roadtech]

Originally posted by Siliconjunkie
Well, I have no idea what happened with other memebers, and it really doesn't matter. Like all communities, things ebb and flow, people come and go.

Amanda crunched for a while, then had to stop for the summer, I popped up and started crunching recently.

Others will do the same thing.

As for attracting/recruiting new members, the giveaways are a good way to go. It's what got me to throw a cruncher in. I think that the contests need to be tweaked, since due to the causal/new member they appear easily rigged. Most will be skeptical and think that it only goes to certain people or similar.

I have some ideas on how to fix this, but this isn't the place to discuss them.

Just my 2 shillings.

Well please post a thread.
We would like to here them.
We have 5 motherboards to give away.
And would like to be as fair as possible.
Kev & Rea

[mickwish]

Sounds like SJ is needing to PM Roadtech some ideas... ;)

Anything that could help the contests, and attract more crunchers to the project, is a good thing, IMO! :cool:

Cheers
Mick

[prujohn]

Sorry guys. I certainly had no intention of stirring up all this history - which seems to be before my short time here.

:chug:

[sharder8]

Originally posted by prujohn
Sorry guys. I certainly had no intention of stirring up all this history - which seems to be before my short time here.

:chug: That's okay prujohn, ya' started a good thread, with good intentions, and got it crapped on. :(

I think Mick has now gotten it back on the right track. :D

Harder

[Shyguy]

Not your fault Prujohn!!

StandrdDev made a posting (not saying it shouldn't have been or should have been posted, just saying thats all it took to turn this thread into another runaway about our FaD teams past issues).

And thats all it took for this thread to turn into a runaway one. This happens every now & then in other threads related to FaD too.

I guess we just need to try & leave & stop living in the past & focus on the future, the future being, learning from the past & try making our team even better down the road, which Prujohn has done by starting this thread & make a suggestion or two about how to improve ourselves as a Team.

A BIG :thumb: For your enthusiasm, dedication & support for the Team & The Cause!!!

[ishkuess]

hello. i now feel i can post here from time to time without being called an outsider anymore.

i like this thread, it's a very good first post prujohn.

in my opinion, the key words are these : Originally posted by PresterJohn
they allowed their personal feelings to become more important than the common goal.




but what happened is inevitable, due to the nature of human mind, and i see no reason for you, team xpc, to chastise yourself over lost members, nor to be accountable about that loss to other crunchers who have no constructive view to offer.

in short, the team in its whole entity has nothing to be blamed for. you can't expect the group to adjust to the particularities of the individual. it's the individual got to do the arrangements, or leave if they don't feel well in the group.

do i make any sense ?

so, way to go guys, you are, seen with my likkle unexperienced and ignorant eyes, one of the most active and pleasant teams in the project, (albeit way too much into stats for my own liking, poke poke ;)) so don't go blaming yourselves, it's certainly not worth it.

[mickwish]

Makes a lot of sense to me, Ish. :cool:

Thanks for posting. It certainly helps to hear views from those outrside the team, IMO. :)

...even if they are French... poke poke ;) :D

Cheers
Mick

[dannychuckle]

Originally posted by ishkuess
i now feel i can post here from time to time without being called an outsider anymore.
hi Ish! you certainly can ;)

[PresterJohn]

Originally posted by ishkuess
hello. i now feel i can post here from time to time without being called an outsider anymore....
so, way to go guys, you are, seen with my likkle unexperienced and ignorant eyes, one of the most active and pleasant teams in the project, (albeit way too much into stats for my own liking, poke poke ;)) so don't go blaming yourselves, it's certainly not worth it.

well this is a welcome and rare surprise, Ish. we miss your presence and your voice here. :)

re: prujohn's thread on how to attract more people, i'm not going to discuss giveaways because i think they're only partially effective. they're fun and help draw some interest but are ultimately not sustainable in the long term. the real attraction for people to participate in this project and to be part of this team is to make our forum interesting.

in the early days of this team's creation, we had a lot of chatter about ourselves, about FAD, and about what was going on in our lives. i think some of that has been absent in a while.

a lot of people look at the daily stats thread and post the usual stuff - congrats & thanks, etc. that is all well & good but it's become rote.

w2k is the only consistent poster there who does any 'waffle', ie. talks a little about what's going in his daily life, whether good or bad. i think we need more of that...talk about what happened in your life recently; it doesn't even have to be about yourself...it could be something you saw happen to someone else...a stranger, a friend, a co-worker, etc. or even an opinion about something in the news, like that deluded 'Arab princess' who's suing AMEX for all the charges she's racked up. ;)

it's banter and chatter that like which will attract the casual visitor to our FAD forum and which will (i hope) draw them into participating here. i know that this was one of the reasons why i signed up to do FAD...it was the people and personalities on the team that made me want to do it. crunching for a cure has a charitable ring to it but it doesn't bring across the human element to the project and that is especially important when you're communicating thru a medium like the Internet, which is naturally inpersonal.

now i know many of us have a busy schedule and i don't expect everyone to make daily posts like that but if we do a few each week it would go a long way.

[roadtech]

I agree with you PJ.
When I first came here members would post about most anything. Does seem that things have came to a crawl.....:confused:

So come on team let's here your Good, Bad, Ugly and ever Boring.....:bunny:

[serlv ( Zippy )]

Originally posted by ishkuess
hello. i now feel i can post here from time to time without being called an outsider anymore.

i like this thread

outsider... :devil:

heheh, j/k. from my point of view, you are welcome here.



ok, PJ, you asked for it...

just got back from a sleep study. spent the night with wires attached everywhere ( no not there!, :eek: ) and wearing a CPAP mask. the future does not look good, certainly not for my sex life. but maybe i'll sleep better and no longer be such an irritable b'stard. might live longer, too.

so, anywhoo, where was i? oh yeah, i am now at home w just a little under 2 hours til i have to be at work. normally i start at 06:30, but today i'm starting late, at 09:30. woohoo 5 hour work day!

what else?
it is frigging cold here! 29 degrees Fahrehheit. supposed to be hot in the desert. one good thing is the A/C may not even come on. maybe.

what else?
i will be decommissioning a PC, not sure which one. gone are the days when i would just add to the herd when i bought new equipment. the Power Company has seen to that! in its' place >> i have purchased a 3500+ Winchester ( dagnabbit, Lauren - this is now will be my second A64 system!, darn you! :) ), and have an MSI 8KN Neo2 Platinum and XP-90 coming in day or three. i picked up HL2, for $29 in a bundle deal w the CPU.

on the Mach II front, no news - i will be emailing them right after this post. they said parts were on the way to them. they could have used a sailboat to get them to the US, from Denmark, by now. what up wid dat? i would love to get that thing up and running...

ok, i digress. was hoping to keep this waffle non-tech.

i am dismayed at the ever increasing number of grey hairs on my head. gu8ess it is time for a haircut! heheh.

well then they just show up more ( but shorter ).

yesterday, i came up on 18 years clean in NA ( if you don't know what that is, nevermind ). needless to say, i'm very thankful. will take a cake tonight at my homegroup.
(now, about that computer addiction... heheh )

alright, end of waffle.

time to email the folks who should be getting my parts to get my never run Prometeia up and going.

Have a good day, all.

Good post - prujohn.

Sigma, at times I get dismayed at what happens here, too. But hey where humans. Wish we didn't shove pppl out the door, but usually they have a large hand in it, or make that decision themselves. I hate losing anyone. Actually, it pisses me off. I liked Lauren. I grew to tolerate ( and appreciate the other one ). Jeez, people can get so pissy. Me too. I was taught if ya don't have something good to say, don't say nothing. Well, I'm not sure that is good advice, fromn a medical/psychological standpoint - stuffing things isn't real healthy. But I do tend to bite my tongue a lot. Saves having to make amends later. I can be quite nasty. And I'd rather not share that part of me.

^^^^^damn, where did that waffle come from? guess i wanted to say, I have agreed with some of the things said, some of the time, by some of the people who get "voiced down on". Things sometimes need to be heard, that aren't necessarily welcome. Perhaps a welcome counterpoint to "everything is beautiful". A Reality Check. But, usually the reality is a point somewhere between the two.

Whatever, I'll shutup now. Starting to say too much! [ /actual end of rant-waffle ]

Cheers,
Scott

[prujohn]

I like to think that increasing the numbers of "little crunchers" in our ranks, increases the probability of people who graduate up to "big crunchers". Also helps defray natural attrition (currently we have about 33% of our roster "inactive").

Someone also made the comment earlier about how it's not really about the points, it's about the cure. I agree to an extent... BUT doesn't more points = better chances to find a cure? :)

:chug:

[davidw]

Originally posted by serlv ( Zippy )
just got back from a sleep study. spent the night with wires attached everywhere ( no not there!, :eek: ) and wearing a CPAP mask. the future does not look good, certainly not for my sex life. but maybe i'll sleep better and no longer be such an irritable b'stard. might live longer, too. I hear ya. I know exactly what you went through on that - because I did it a few times, and have to get it redone... again. You are dead right on the "might live longer" part... so many deaths are Apnea related that are misdiagnosed as heart attacks. Btw, I don't know if you get a choice, but if you do... the Nasal Aire is probably the best you can get - its what I use - lots of movement and you can even wear glasses while wearing it. :D

[davidw]

Ok, resume topic.

[Shyguy]

Wow & I thought I rambled on a lot, J/K!!!:D

Cept maybe the fact with Zippy's post its mostly in brief coherent statements unlike mine which usually end up in one big jumbled mess, LOL!!!:D

[Win2Kuser]

I have to agree with PJ on the waffle side of things. If we are to snare unsuspecting new members to FaD, we need to make it interesting. If someone just happens to click on a stats thread, most of the numbers won't make any sence, but on scrolling down, all that person would see is;

1st, grats to the stonerz.

WTGT :D

WTGT
TFTSW
IDKFA
IDGAD
BLAH
:D

and

so

on

and

so

on!


It generally doesn't make much sence to anyone other than us :)

If each of us just strung a single sentence together so that new person has something to read as apposed to solve (anagram style), that person will realise that there are real people here doing great work - Instead of mindless zombies repeating the same thing every day :P :D

I didn't intend to make that sound rude, but replies need to be more open rather than automated :)

Just IMO

Maybe I might even stop with the 'Morning y'all" that starts about 99% of stats threads :bunny:

[PresterJohn]

the info was nice, Zippy, but i would put them in the next stats thread...here isn't a good place. :)

probably modify the style too...a bit too force-fed. ;)

me...i don't any problems sleeping. that's a product of clean living and exercise, a clear conscience, and a usually hard day's work. :p

[PresterJohn]

Originally posted by prujohn
Someone also made the comment earlier about how it's not really about the points, it's about the cure. I agree to an extent... BUT doesn't more points = better chances to find a cure? :)

to an extent, yes it is...the more work returned (meaning more pts) the faster we can find the promising drug candidates.

but what Ish, myself and others are trying to say is a team is more than just about points...or at least it should be. i would gladly welcome a few new crunchers (who may only contribute a few thousand pts a week) but who contributes to the discussion activity just as much as a cruncher with a boatload of pts to their name.

[prujohn]

Originally posted by PresterJohn
to an extent, yes it is...the more work returned (meaning more pts) the faster we can find the promising drug candidates.

but what Ish, myself and others are trying to say is a team is more than just about points...or at least it should be. i would gladly welcome a few new crunchers (who may only contribute a few thousand pts a week) but who contributes to the discussion activity just as much as a cruncher with a boatload of pts to their name.

hmmm PJ I think I agree with most of what you are saying, but the "contributes to the discussion" part is sticky with me... why? Some personalities don't find discussions forums interesting (or pick your reason) :) I think they should weigh any less as a team member because of that :) Some peeps are just "quiet" :)

:chug:

[prujohn]

hmm let me expand on that just a bit:

The key to attracting the more members (keeping the engine running) from the widest possible variety of candidates (types of people) is to find that thing about what we are doing that appeals to each of them. What that "thing" is, I will leave open to discussion. :)

Mine is to find the perfect combination of molocules which produces the perfect beer - having no side effects such as hangover or weight gain. Huh..? What's that? This...isn't the FAB (Find-a-Beer) project?! AWWWW MAN!!!! ;)

:chug:

[PresterJohn]

Originally posted by prujohn
is to find that thing about what we are doing that appeals to each of them. What that "thing" is, I will leave open to discussion. :)

no you are on the wrong track. it not about find what appeals to them. it's simply about casual chatter & discussion among ourselves.

look at this from another perspective...if you were new to crunching FAD and if you were thinking of joining a team, what would you use as the criteria for making your decision? why would someone join XPC over other boards or other teams such as Anandtech, TIMO, or Phoenix?

if you think about it, the answer in most cases, is because they identify or enjoy being included with the members who are on the team (or the board), whether it's because they find the prople interesting, witty, smart, etc.

all i'm saying is that if all the thread activity here was just hello. congrats to the stoners, have a happy thanksgiving, see you tomorrow...many people would probably lose interest after a while. but when you have a group of people who 'talk' and their personalities inevitably comes thru (by the tone and content of their posts) it makes for a more interesting place.

go to the very early threads in the forums here 8/01/03 and look thru them. you'll see exactly what i mean.

and no, i don't expect everyone to 'contribute' and i know some peole aren't the communicative type. but making an interesting place to attract newcomers and to keep the interest does take a little work & effort much like any relationship in real life.

[prujohn]

I don't think I'm on the wrong track. I think I am thinking about increasing FaD production and you are thinking about socializing on forums as a benefit of FaD teams. I also think you are speaking more about YOUR motivation and applying it to others, which is a bad assumption to make. Some may argue socializing on forums and FaD are one in the same, but I look at the simple statistics of it and I see the same Bell Curve here that is seen anywhere in the realm of human dynamics... a certain % will be highly social, a certain % won't be social at all, and the rest will fall somewhere in between. That percentage will generally remain the same, whether you have 10 people on the team or 10000 people on the team...

BTW, i your last paragraph, you described the "thing" which I was referring to, from your perspective. I think there are other reasons and ways to attract newcomers.

I think either way, we all would like the same end result, so getting there is certainly open for discussion.

/out

[sharder8]

Okay ya' two TTwit wanna'be's!! :P

Yer' both wrong . . . but yer' also both right!! :rolleyes:

It takes a dedication to finding the cures AND team spirit to keep the team on track. :D Those of us that were at TIMO together saw what the jabbering did there and how the team grew. When we came to XPC and formed a team . . . most of the serious crunchers followed, but many of the regulars also came. Not to hang out with the big boys, but to enjoy the chatter and the fun of being on Team XPC. One of the key reasons Snowman has given the Team much more freedom of speech then we ever had at TIMO. He allows us to police ourselves, and we keep the Mod's pretty bored most of the time. :rolleyes:

I don't think this team or many of the other teams have survived long with out both the dedication and Team Spirit that we've had here. :D

Just my take on the arguement! :bunny:

Harder

[sharder8]

And on that note . . .

Look what has happened at Team TIMO in the last 6 weeks! :eek:

I took on the mission to "awaken the sleeping giant", in the last 6 weeks of nothing more than jabbering and making people aware there was a lot of talking about something called [FAD]. :rolleyes: :D The team has more than doubled in activity percent and has moved up 2 places in the stats. :D They are now firmly set at moving up a 3 place before Christmas (15M points required to do that). I believe they will do that, and move up another spot within 8 weeks! :eek: That will then place them in 6th and poised to jump 3 more spots shortly there after. BTW, that will put them in 3rd, right behind XPC in the standings. :bunny:

For the Ol' timers, a question . . . . . Where did I say I'd like to see XPC and TIMO in the standings? :P

Finally, it looks like they're now picking up a couple fast movers that will become their Plum's, Zippy's, and A novice's!

Harder

Lest I forget . . . .

PJ, BS and I are about ta' stomp on yer' tail!! :eek: And I promise ta' blow some smoke as I pass ya'! :bunny:

[PresterJohn]

Originally posted by prujohn
I don't think I'm on the wrong track. I think I am thinking about increasing FaD production and you are thinking about socializing on forums as a benefit of FaD teams. BTW, i your last paragraph, you described the "thing" which I was referring to, from your perspective.

if you're looking to increase FAD production then you would know the most efficient way of doing it is to recruit or attract more participants. and if that is the goal, then you still haven't answered my question that i asked in my last post, ie. "what is it about this team that would make people crunch for us rather than for another team?"

if you bothered to look at the old threads you would notice a distinct difference between thread and topic activity then (when team XPC was formed) and what it is now. in those days, everyone would visit the forum every day (no matter how busy their schedule) just to read all the threads and many would participate as well.

it was entertaining, lively, and totally spontaneous.

nowadays, we've got basically the daily stats thread and whatever "let's welcome XYZ to the team" and not much else. i'm not saying the forum is totally dead or anything, but it certainly isn't what it was before when we had consistent 85+% participation out of the rank and file. and a number of the core members who were here (w2k, harder, mick) would agree.

ask dannychuckle why he came to us from team none. i helped bring Allaway over by asking him to look thru our forums and seeing the type of people we were. what made Twinkletoes leave TopCats for XPC? we sure as heck weren't doing giveaways to get them to come over.

or ask H_E, Gouki, Omar and all the other TIMO'ers that came over in wave #2 why they moved here. (well in Omar's case, Mondo. myself, and a few others had to do a lot of IM'ing to get him over!) :D

the heart of the matter was that WE, the members, did a better job to embody the spirit of what it meant to crunch for a cure and have a good fun time doing it than anyplace else at the time. and that while we were still a diverse group of people, we yet had much in common and that we cared about each other too.


>I think there are other reasons and ways to attract newcomers.

well, let's hear some then because your quarterly "recruit one new member" drive isn't anything new...no offense. we already all understand that recruiting and being on the lookout is a 'year-long' thing.

>a certain % will be highly social, a certain % won't be social at all, and the rest will fall somewhere in between

that's fine. like i said, i don't expect everyone to have to post and that is not what i meant.

some people like to voice their opinions and some just like to read thru them (the lurking type :) ). but the key is that the forum remains interesting. that it is interesting enough to keep regulars and newcomers to want to come back and say, "hey is a pretty good group of guys & gals to hang with" and that maybe "i'll hang my hat up here for a while"...

[edit] additions

[serlv ( Zippy )]

ribbit!

[sharder8]

Originally posted by serlv ( Zippy )
ribbit! And on that note . . . .

Why are frogs perverts???

When a pretty young thing walks by their pond, they all chime in with "rape-it, rape-it" :rolleyes:

[PresterJohn]

ughhh....that was awful, harder. :)

[sharder8]

Originally posted by PresterJohn
ughhh....that was awful, harder. :) Actually PJ, that was one of TTwit's sick, sad, sorry jokes! :rolleyes:

So don't blame me! :angel:

Harder

[davidw]

I'd say something, but I might get 'modded'

[sharder8]

Originally posted by Christian-Comp
I'd say something, but I might get 'modeled'

Whadya' mean, ya' might get modeled? :confused:

And for what calender or mag C-C?? :confused: :confused:

Harder











Dang, I knew I was partially deaf and not wearing a hearing aid . . . . but I guess I need ta' get glasses as well!! :eek: :rofl:

[mickwish]

Is that the kind of spontaneous posting you are talking about, PJ? The one that shows us something about Harder's personality? :D

Might be some of the recent "issues" between some of the team members have contibuted to the stale spontaneity; I have seen something like that in the past, where there was a "lull" in the postings. Hopefully now those "issues" are behind us things will pick up again. :)

Interesting thoughts, though. ;)

Cheers
Mick

[Roswell_NX]

Originally posted by sharder8
Whadya' mean, ya' might get modeled? :confused:

And for what calender or mag C-C?? :confused: :confused:

Harder











Dang, I knew I was partially deaf and not wearing a hearing aid . . . . but I guess I need ta' get glasses as well!! :eek: :rofl:

oh, i thought he said "molded":o

Roswell:D

[mickwish]

Originally posted by Christian-Comp
I'd say something, but I might get 'modded' Modded?? :confused:

Why would someone wanna cut a hole in your side and stick a window in it, or play with your buttons? :confused:

:P

Cheers
Mick

[Roswell_NX]

Originally posted by mickwish
Modded?? :confused:

Why would someone wanna cut a hole in your side and stick a window in it, or play with your buttons? :confused:

:P

Cheers
Mick

as far as modding goes, changing LEDs and decorating the case is enough fer me :)

Roswell

[Shyguy]

Huh? I would have thought Omar would have popped in here to add to the conversation...?

Well guess I will!!!


OKay, Who Farted?:fart: :D

[Win2Kuser]

Ah, talking of wind...


Must be about time I got my Kite out :bunny:

Oh wait!, we are trying to recruit not scare everyone away...

...safely tucked back away then.

[Cowboybooter]

originally posted by mickwish
Why would someone wanna cut a hole in your side

I get involved in that all the time, at work!

:D

Bob

[davidw]

Looks like we got wayyy off topic here.

[Win2Kuser]

Ah but did we...

It makes an interesting read viewed through the eyes of someone new, visiting or passing through.

It could be all that is needed to snare someone new to joining the cause
:D

[StandrdDev]

Wow! Where to start first?! And to think I actually hoped for a different result - I really need to have my head examined. I suppose the best way to start is to address a few of your posts in the order they were posted. If you indulge me for a few minutes, I'll try to do a better job of making myself more clear. So here goes...

W2K:

I''m sorry that my post came across to you as discouraging or gloatful. That was not my intent, but I can certainly see how the issues I've raised could have that effect. There is definitely much for XPC to celebrate and be proud of - I'm sorry I didnt highlight them all (if i even could) - however, there are some areas where I believe this team and the individuals who comprise it can do a lot better. My post was constructed to serve two purposes. First this thread is about risk management, or how to mitigate the loss of a big cruncher. How better to identify that risk than by quantifying it(?), which I did by tallying all those (that i knew of ) who have left XPC for whatever reason - some being benign, some inevitable, and some most definitely neither. When I informally tallied those members I come up with something around 210-220 million present day points (rounding up or down to the nearest million for each individual and knocking off an additional 10% just to be conservative). The point of that exercise was that the number is staggeringly large (even if it was half of that it would still be) and it would have to be quite a strategy to mitigate it. Even TSC, with close to 900 members (344 active) would suffer under the loss of Joker! or some other heavy-hitter. IMO, this spells out the death knell for any thought of managing this risk soley via means of recruiting. Which brings me to second purpose of my post which is that IMO, your (our) efforts are better spent on eliminating or mitigating the reason(s) as to why those members left in the first place. Reasons, which in some cases, still remain clear, lucid and verbalised (drifting into deletion) yet remain unaddressed, ignored or so easily dismissed as "someone else's problem" by the prideful, prejudiced, myopic and apathetic. But theres no one here who exhibits (or has exhibited) that kind of behavior, right? You're all good people (I dont know you all that well, but I never encountered a single bad one at XPC yet) and good people dont act that way, right? It would be great if that were true but the fact is it plainly isn't - as someone has aptly pointed out "we're only human." As for all those names in grey, I certainly have no intention of lumping them in with "those who have left XPC", and I only mentioned it because it seems more than plausible to me that maybe the events and tendencies that I speak of might have inspired them to go elsewhere. Nothing more, nothing less. Finally, as to "what I would have you do", is not really for me to say, it is your team afterall, but I think after reading this post you'll have some good ideas where to start.

PresterJohn:

So it all boils down to us taking FaD 'too seriously' or letting our personal feelings blind us from the common goal, eh? Now who's grossly oversimplifying if not misinterpreting entirely? Your entitled to your opinion, however I beg to differ. While I wouldn't dare to speak for the others, I find it ironic how their parting words (and/or the circumstances surrounding their departure) offer stark contrast to some of your synopses and conclusions. As for my own reasons, they go far deeper than merely disagreeing on how Mondo's expulsion was handled - reasons I painstakingly expounded with great care and candor in my (well-read but largely ignored) departure thread titled "Why I left XPC" and reasons which have only grown in number since it was posted. More on this in a minute. So you question my motives do you? You think I'm here because I like to be the sole voice of dissent embroiled in controversy? Or perhaps you think I seek to do you harm and subvert and undermine your every word? Passive-aggressive? How bout just plain insane? Do you think it's easy to come before a large, well-established group of people (some of which you yourself euphemise as "a bit too outspoken"), protest an injustice or raise a sensitive issue, and inspire them to change or even consider the need to, no matter how subtle or diplomatic the presentation? If you (hypothetically) happend to agree with me (in part or in whole), do you think it would be in your best interests to stick your neck out and expose yourself, considering the number, nature and content of the "rebuttals" exhibited? Or conversely, if you happend to disagree, do you think you might be encouraged to join the fray? How about a new (or unestablished) member? Is this the kind of "welcome and open" forum environment that you herald? I've got 5 dogs, 2 cats, a wife, 7 1/2 month-old daughter (whom is currently sick as a dog and cranky as all h3ll), a family business to run (and another in planning), 2 vintage military vehicles to tinker with, 500,000 vertical feet of hip-deep untracked powder to ski within 15 minutes of me and a gajillion miles of trails to snowmobile, snowshoe or XC on, in some of the most gorgeous country you've ever seen, right out my backdoor - so if you think I'm here to get my jollies or daily dose of trouble, think again. I have plenty of both. I am here simply because I choose to be. Because I believe I have something important and substantive to say and contribute - something which IMO needs to be brought out into the light. And because I was hopeful that my investment of time and energy would yield results, if I could just pique the intelect or interest of just one level-headed, established and influential member (I'd settle for anyone at this moment) without inciting their (or others) prideful wrath - I failed. I suppose in hindsight my own frustration, stemming from repeatedly failing to achieve the desired result (which seems so plainly simple to me), despite my most sincere and best efforts, ultimately betrayed me, and made me appear disingenuous or perhaps provided the just the excuse needed to rebuff, marginalize or otherwise pigeonhole me with the label of just another disgruntled "cruncher who has no constructive view to offer." As to your views on moderators here at XPC, I entirely agree with you. I believe them to be good folk, one and all, who are in the uneviable position of trying to maintain some semblence of order and fairplay in a forum that sports a membership from all walks of life and spans the globe - a daunting if not outright impossible task, even in a perfect world, considering the cultural, social and behavioral (etc) differences that entails and the limitations and liabilities of the medium used. Misunderstanding needs no help in proliferation, here or anywhere. It's the sewer rat of the written and spoken human world, follows us where ever we congregate, and plagues us with the maladies that accompany its presence. The are times however, IMO, the moderators unwittingly foster the misunderstanding by hastily and seemingly arbitrarily locking threads, editing posts and in some cases imparting their own personal parting stigma (along with the other members' ) with no opportunity for rebuttal. It would seem, that the criteria for locking a thread is not the actual content, nature or spirit of the post, but rather how the membership in general responds to it - a sort of "peace, no matter the cost" policy or otherwise following the path of least resistance. To this end, I assign no blame to the moderators. IMO, it is only natural for this kind of policy to evolve into being (in the absence of clear and concise set of criteria pre-established, known and agreed upon by all), as it makes their job easier (in the short run) and keeps the PM box from overfilling. But it comes with a price, a pretty steep one IMO, where on one side of the fence, a person has to fend off a series of rebuttals, misinterpretations, and character assassinations from numerous different people, prevent his words from being edited, prevent the thread from being locked and still get his point across. On the other side of the fence, you have a self-fueled and incited "lynch mob" (with a silent majority looking on), with essentially free reign to castigate and dole out as much disdain and retribution as they wish, secure in the knowledge that they wont be held to account for their words (possibly chided indirectly or privately at best) by the moderators or membership especially after their numerous and vociferous attacks has the understandable effect to discourage, frustrate or otherwise elicit the big FU from the opposition, which conveniently provides all the justification needed to warrant their actions. So it all boils down to me, that if you've got an issue with XPC, then you have two choices, both unpleasant; shut up or leave. Lastly, as it pertains to my comments on systemic, insipid and insideous: besides sounding really cool, and going together like peas and carrots, those words were specifically chosen for their meaning and if you care to acquaint yourself with their definitions, and couple them with what I've described and a touch of objectivity, I think its a spot on characterization of some of the problems here at XPC.

Sharder:

Where do I begin? I suppose it would be appropriate to lead off by extending an apology and explaination to you concerning the lack of reply to your PM, actually two PM's if I recall correctly. I am sorry if you feel snubbed by my lack of response and I can completely understand how you might feel that way, at the very least they were deserving of reply. Regarding your first PM (the one sent after my post in the "FaD Decision" thread) I didnt reply due to the fact that I was away on vacation for 2 1/2 weeks and following that I was inundated with family and such. It was over a month before I signed back on. As I recall, your PM which alerted me that I wasn't in full possession of the facts, but didnt go into too much detail (none actually) as to how that was so. I guess you were going to save that for a follow-on PM. After 5 or 6 weeks, and the lack of anything really memorable, I simply forgot about your PM. A stupid and negligent mistake that shouldn't have happend but nonetheless did. Your second PM came in response to my departure thread and was far more substantive than the first. In this instance, both circumstance and the content* (*which I will address in a moment) of that message prompted my decision not to reply, a decision I now deem a mistake, especially so after considering its rather obvious affect on you. While ordinarily circumstance would play a minimal role, if any, in explaination, on this occaison they were considerable. In additon to fighting a very unpleasant case of food poisoning to the point that I didnt know what end of me to put in the commode first, throw in a 102 fever, some bedspins, and 5 1/2 hours of rest till I had to get on a plane to go on a business trip, and a back-and-forth debate with Mickwish - I had to pick my battle, and Mick got there first. Now that I've dispensed with the bridge-mending lets address the rest of your post. If I didnt know you to be the generally nice guy that you are, I'd say that the rest of your post represents a shallow, transparent, and malicious affront to my character, by deliberately and materially misrepresenting the facts, so as to disparage and belittle my viewpoint and words. However, considering the time of year and the understandable fact that you feel slighted and the role I played in it, let's just chalk it up as an unfortunate misunderstanding. I've always tried to conduct myself with respect, objectivity and understanding for the members and their opinions during my short tenure here at XPC. Admittably some instances more so than others, but nothing that could be construed as outright failure or derogatory, and I challenge anyone to bring forth an instance that demonstrates otherwise. The only thing I ask of you in return, is to extend the same courtesy back to me, to the best you are able, in keeping with the spirit as opposed to magnitude. Nothing more is necessary, nothing less will be accepted, nor should it be, by me or anyone, whether you are the beneficiary of it or not. As to making conclusions based on less-than-perfect information - I agree, it is unfortunate, however it is a simple fact of life and occurs every day, in everyones lives. As the old adage goes, only hindsight proves to see 20/20. Furthermore, I find it incredibly ironic that you of all people make such a charge, especially so in regards to the Mondobyte incident and the role you (and others) played in that. Which brings me back to the contents of your PM. You'll probably be a bit surprised to learn that it was your second PM that served as the coup de grace to any thought that I had misunderstood what had transpired. It was a veritable smoking gun, which confirmed my worst suspicions. It stated that due to Mondo's past history at TIMO, he was on what amounts to "double secret probation" and that it was predetermined by you and the other founders a.k.a "The Triad", (as opposed to after the fact as I had stated) before he was "allowed" to join the team, that if he caused trouble he would be asked to leave and forced to, if it proved necessary. After analogizing the situation as a pedophile seeking position in the PTA (I think Larry Flynt is a better example btw), you went on state that after yours and the other leaders efforts to reign him in (or otherwise submit to your control) failed, you were left with no other choice but to enforce his probation, and expel him. Of course you couldn't do that alone, you needed the support of the rest of the team to successfully drum him out, so a thread was drawn up stating that he was asked to leave, the justification for which was supplied by Mondo's own diatribe, prickly and gruff personality traits, and further enhanced by the flames on the FaD boards and spilling over onto XPC's, and then wrapped it all up in a tidy little bow, stating it was made in the teams best interests. Following the lead of the triad and other "lieutenants", one by one, the loyal, faithful and only partially informed, chimed in with their varied support for their leadership's decision, those who dissented either left or were slowly pulled back into the fold and anesthetized by the gravity of numbers of fellow members and pride-filled messages of unification heralding a greater common cause. Thus the deception was complete, all the square pegs removed from their round holes, the crisis abated, and the double standards, prejudices and other dirty little secrets remained safely concealed from the ever present public eye and trusting membership. I'm wrong you say? Then answer me this: What if Mondo came here as someone named something other than Mondo, without the history behind the name, someone like Prujohn or Leviathan or whomever - would the result be the same? Would everyone be so quick to pass judgement? Would you ostracise him as you did Mondo? You did not in the past, and I think you wouldn't now. Again, I dont think you to be bad people, I think you simply fooled yourselves into thinking you were acting in the best interests of this team, that the end justifed your means, and that you have the ability and right to control anyone or anything other than your own behavior. While many of the members here might have shared a long history with you, many (more every week) have not, including myself, and while those that know you might have no qualms with it, I grant you no proxy to think or pass judgement for me, and any assumption on your part that anyone else does, without their explicit approval, is a dangerous assumption indeed.

I'm sure you all will breath a big sigh of relief to learn that this will be my last post here at XPC. I make this decision not only for my own good, but for yours as well, as we seem bring out the very worst in each other, and it seems that we will never be able to see eye-to-eye on these matters and I have lost all faith in my ability to sway your course. Forgive me, but I had to try.

Sigma

[mickwish]

I'm not address anything in your post, Sigma, except this: What if Mondo came here as someone named something other than Mondo, without the history behind the name, someone like Prujohn or Leviathan or whomever - would the result be the same? Would everyone be so quick to pass judgement? Would you ostracise him as you did Mondo?Anyone rejoining after being banned would need permission from Mntsnow. Without that, they are in breach of the agreement you agree to when joining the foum. If Mondo comes back under another nick and it is confirmed it is him, he will be banned. No questions asked.

Mick

edited for very poor typing

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

It stated that due to Mondo's past history at TIMO, he was on what amounts to "double secret probation" and that it was predetermined by you and the other founders a.k.a "The Triad", (as opposed to after the fact as I had stated) before he was "allowed" to join the team, that if he caused trouble he would be asked to leave and forced to, if it proved necessary. After analogizing the situation as a pedophile seeking position in the PTA (I think Larry Flynt is a better example btw), you went on state that after yours and the other leaders efforts to reign him in (or otherwise submit to your control) failed, you were left with no other choice but to enforce his probation, and expel him. Of course you couldn't do that alone, you needed the support of the rest of the team to successfully drum him out, so a thread was drawn up stating that he was asked to leave, the justification for which was supplied by Mondo's own diatribe, prickly and gruff personality traits, and further enhanced by the flames on the FaD boards and spilling over onto XPC's, and then wrapped it all up in a tidy little bow, stating it was made in the teams best interests. Following the lead of the triad and other "lieutenants", one by one, the loyal, faithful and only partially informed, chimed in with their varied support for their leadership's decision, those who dissented either left or were slowly pulled back into the fold and anesthetized by the gravity of numbers of fellow members and pride-filled messages of unification heralding a greater common cause. Thus the deception was complete, all the square pegs removed from their round holes, the crisis abated, and the double standards, prejudices and other dirty little secrets remained safely concealed from the ever present public eye and trusting membership. I'm wrong you say? Then answer me this: What if Mondo came here as someone named something other than Mondo, without the history behind the name, someone like Prujohn or Leviathan or whomever - would the result be the same? Would everyone be so quick to pass judgement? Would you ostracise him as you did Mondo? You did not in the past, and I think you wouldn't now. Again, I dont think you to be bad people, I think you simply fooled yourselves into thinking you were acting in the best interests of this team, that the end justifed your means, and that you have the ability and right to control anyone or anything other than your own behavior.

Sigma, with regards to the above, he was asked to leave the team as a direct result of constant attacks coming back to the site, this was a direct action that he asked for, with baiting people and pushing buttons. The accusations/assumptions were a cause, While I'ld like it to be as simple as you state, it wasn't. I can appreciate that you have a viewpoint, but you are assuming... and you know what assumptions do.

The decision that you say was made before the team was moved was actually a request that was made, and the decision to ask Mondo to leave was made due to many reasons, this only being a small part. (It's not that uncommon to ask someone to show self control on a public site under public scrutiny, after all you agreed to the terms of this site didn't you?)

While I appreciate the trip down memory lane, I don't feel it's approriate to dredge up stuff that is in the past, and it was quite justifiable from the sites point of view.

Also, Colossus which was an alias of Mondo on here was banned with him, so I think that answers the question appropriately as to what would be done. Him being banned was also not because of any of this, but because of a threat of lawsuit for something that isn't illegal as per the DMCA.

WoO

[StandrdDev]

Mick, WoO:

You misunderstand what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that if Mondobyte joined this team (way back when) without the stigma that came with this name and your experience with it - not after the banning. The clean slate that any new member comes here with, or rather should come here with. If it is anything other than a clean slate - its a double standard.

As to my "assumptions" Sharders PM pretty well covered them.
So if I've got the wrong idea then his PM must have been wrong cause it was pretty darn plain.

Also please dont confuse that I find Mondo's behavior just as deficient as anyone would - it was just plain wrong and indefensable.

As to direct attacks coming back, punching buttons, baiting, causing problems etc. Mondo is not the only person here who has done this. Nothing happend to him - so how is Mondo a special case?

As for dredging up the past, I agree on one hand, but on another I think there are some lessons to be learned from it , especially so when it comes to "risk management". Additionally this only happend a few months ago, so it isnt just lamenting on the distant past.

Sigma

[Win2Kuser]

Yeah Whatever!

I would have read throught your post, but 3 blocks of text 10 inches high each without a single paragraph space and considering I had a few beers last night makes for an uncomfortable read. I can only assume that it just drags up the past again, so it's not worth reading anyway IMO.

We will of course learn from the Mondo experience, so that if it happens again, we can click the ban button faster.

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

1/2 a year, few months, call it what you will, it is the past.

as for
As to direct attacks coming back, punching buttons, baiting, causing problems etc. Mondo is not the only person here who has done this. Nothing happend to him - so how is Mondo a special case?

He was the only one that was doing all of them, and he was the only one who had people so outraged they were looking for ways to get even with the SITE.

You may think the "cover" was to say it was bad for the site, but unless you are blind to what happened with regards to a few incidents you are talking BS. There were many potential problems to this site, which if I was in MntSnow's position, I would have told the team to leave since it was bringing some very bad things here, which is first and foremost His Site. Since you fail to understand, allow me to give you an anology.

You invite some friends to your house for a social gathering, but when they are there one starts calling people that know where he is and yelsl at them, accuses them of all kinds of things, tells them to come over and argue. When they arrive, they inevitably get arrested, but before that happens they manage to piss off everyone that's there and start painting slander on the walls, you know he was the one that called them, what would you do if it was your house?

Personally, as I've said time and time again, and I'll say it yet again, people are free to come and go from this team, the position of the team in the standings means little to me, since I know that this is a great place to have fun while we are crunching.

[Mntsnow]

I'm sure you all will breath a big sigh of relief to learn that this will be my last post here at XPC. I make this decision not only for my own good, but for yours as well, as we seem bring out the very worst in each other, and it seems that we will never be able to see eye-to-eye on these matters and I have lost all faith in my ability to sway your course. Forgive me, but I had to try.

Good bye :rolleyes:

[Mntsnow]

And bang bang...